I was surprised that there's not already a topic on Putin!
The question I propose we debate is:
Is he corrupt?
What I do think, however, is that we need to be sensible in our arguments. So, perhaps it would be best to avoid coming out with sweeping statements like; "I don't think he's corrupt because the news stories are wrong!" If you do think that, great, but I really think that on such a potentially heated topic we all need to explain our arguments and view-points.
Also, let's try and avoid just plain making things up. If you post something which might be debated, just post a source.
So, I suppose I should probably start the debate!
In my opinion, Putin is corrupt. Let's cast our minds back to November 2006 and the death of Alexander Litvinenko. Let's look at the facts:
1. He died of polonium (a type of radiation) poisoning.
2. The last time he was seen before he became ill was when stating that "Anna Politkovskaya was murdered by President Vladimir Putin."
3. Shortly before his illness, he was warned by a friend that his name was on Putin's "hit-list."
4. He wrote a book "Blowing up Russia" which spoke of Putin's scandals.
Let's look at the speculation:
1. It is speculated that Litvinenko labelled Putin responsible for his death.
2. Andrei Lugovoi committed the murder.
There was an obvious motive for Putin to illiminate Litvinenko. He was openly criticising the regime, and his word would have been trusted by many, becuase of his "insider" knowledge.
Polonium is very difficult to get hold of: who would be able to commit this crime? Putin was asked how he thought Mr. Litvinenko would have taken a lethal dose of polonium. Putin's witty reply was; "I don't know. The investigation will find this out."
However: this did not happen. Why? Because Putin would not let the investigation follow to a conclusion; he refused to extradite Lugovoi, who was a key suspect. His argument was that this was an "insult", and that it would be unconstitutional to extradite a Russian citizen. Why, then, does Mr. Putin consider it perfectly constitutional to extradite those who oppose him? In "Blowing up Russia", the list of Russian citizens who have been extradited under Putin is extensive.
Then, instead of cooperating, he decided to attack Britain. He said that "they [the British] must have clearly forgotten that Britain is no longer a colonial power; there are no colonies left and, thank God, Russia has never been a British colony.” Such a response seems very defensive indeed.
Let's say that we are completely unaware of the entire Politkovskaya/Litvinenko affair. To me, it still seems that there are factors which point towards corruption.
- Recently, a minister was sent to Eastern Russia.
- The new Prime Minister (a friend of Putin, former member of the KGB) has intimidated the Ministers in the most overt manner. They have been threatened that disloyalty towards the President will not be tolerated.
- If the Prime Minister becomes President (which he most probably will through Putin's backing), then Putin may well be able to become Prime Minister, thereby retaining influence. Technically not unconstitutional, but it may as well be.
- His dealings with Iran. The Iranian President is at the forefront of the Holocaust denial, which is historically false. He had stated his intention to "wipe Israel off the map." Nonetheless, President Putin feels it acceptable to support the nuclear campaign in Iran. Alligning himself with such a character does not do wonders for his prestige.
- Outside of Moscow, a pro-Putin camp has been held this year. Over 10,000 young people attended, between 15-23 years old. Many went for the fun and games. However, they had to attend compulsary lessons during their stay at the camp. If they did not, they would have been told to "leave, and find their own way home." These lessons included discussing "evil Western values", "the dangers of American expansion", the "disloyalty of Putin's opposition to Russia"* and also Putin's "policitical theories." There were photos of Putin all around.
*This behaviour is similar to that of Adolf Hitler, who claimed that the Weimar government had "stabbed Germany in the back." He lied about what the Jews within the government had done to the country, saying that they had surrended to the West. These lessons in the pro-Putin camp taught that Putin's opposition would sell all of Russia's goods and leave it penniless.
So, my opinion is that Putin is a corrupt politician, and these are my reasons for thinking so.
Putin is truelly (how is that writ´ed) corrupted (i know it is a fact) but it is the only reason what gives me an Russian identity so fast (money that is) so live long ya suckers _________________ Rikosuhri Päivystys Tarvitsee Uusia Uhreja
Well all i can do is to talk from my part ( i have received identity´s less than 10 minutes more than ones) i can not not talk about something else _________________ Rikosuhri Päivystys Tarvitsee Uusia Uhreja
I was´t talking about counter fated passport
i was talking about totally new citizen ship and i know it does not make the president of the state more corrupted if i can buy citizen ship but the whole Russian system seems corrupted to me (nothing bad with that - if money talks let it talk ) but i really think that the whole system is corrupted not just putin but whole government + justice system because i could easily say that if you have enough money (and know right people) you can getaway with murder (obviously i wont admit that i have getted away with it but i know some people - who want to keep their names as secret so i wont tell their names - who have getted away with more than just one murder) and if the system is corrupted the head of the system must be corrupted as well (i don´t think putin is blind to what happens around him - he must know exactly what is going on) - so i bet the safe side AND SAY HE IS CORRUPTED
and sorry for not making sense before this re editing last time i posted this topic i was totally wasted (1 1/2 bottles of jack danniels tend to do just that) _________________ Rikosuhri Päivystys Tarvitsee Uusia Uhreja
Последний раз редактировалось: Mr Goodkat (Вс Ноя 04, 2007 9:58 pm), всего редактировалось 2 раз(а)
Зарегистрирован: 19.07.2007 Сообщения: 710 Откуда: America
Добавлено: Пт Окт 26, 2007 2:23 am Заголовок сообщения:
Personally, I find Mr. Putin to be a buttmunch. Poisoning people with polonium and killing off "snooping" journalists and spending more time talking about how your Labrador just gave birth to puppies than about elections is not very professional.
I SO hope he doesn't win again. I don't know what my family over there will do. Start a riot and be shot, probably. I wouldn't like that at all.
But then, many Russians LOVE Putin. I find it strange. I guess because there aren't any books in Russia about corruption in Putin's government. I'm reading a book now by the journalist Anna Politkovskaya, who was assassinated in an elevator in October a few years back, called "A Russian Diary" and it's all about Putin's Russia and the Chechen conflict. A very dramatic book. I recommend it to anyone interested in Russian politics
Of course, I could go on, but I would like to read what other people have to say lol!
[I wonder what Yulia & Lena think of him? Hmmm....] _________________
Yeah, I agree with what you said. Don't fret too much though, because it is written in the Russian constitution that he cannot run in the next elections. Still, he'll become Prime Minister and continue to call the shots, just in a more covert manner...
I don't understand why he is so popular. I suppose many would be unaware of a great deal, and I can see why his foreign policy would be liked.
Добавлено: Вс Окт 28, 2007 7:56 am Заголовок сообщения:
In all honesty, I really do not know much about Putin or Russian politics to make any concrete comment. However, simply from impressions it appears he is quite popular with the people of Russia. I think it will be difficult for any outsider to understand the inner workings of Russian culture, society, economics and politics. We simply hear about it, the Russians live it. While from most western perspectives it appears Putin is corrupt and too influential. At the same time Russia is a young democracy with a turbulent past, it needs someone of that stature to lead them forward.
I personally am eager to learn more from the Russians about Putin. His policies, the highlights of his tenure and why he is popular with the people.
That being said just to lighten the mood, something we never get about the Russians.
Maybe Putin is Parviz's idol.
Hope no one is offended.
It is about time that someone made me laugh in this forum. My mood made some improvements. No happy times for a lot of fans and Yulia is not helping. I guess her not helping is funny know that I think about it.
There is a website called the Pavel Andrieivich Chekov's, site from the original Star Trek. I do not know how reliable is the information provided, you can decide for yourself, or if fans already know about this site, however, for those fans who do not mind learning. It is a good reading and amuzing!. It entails Russian customs. It may put some understanding of Russia and put into prospective Russians and t.A.T.u's attitudes and behaviors. Plus it's groovy. :>. It is about Russians basics, names, greetings, common manners, visiting, trips, clothing,dating, eating, meals and drinking just to name a few. "Russian Customs or why lying can be a good thing". Do not be fooled by the Star Trek theme. Check it out. http://www.chekovsite.com/customs.html _________________ Katina-Volkova-OUCH!: PSYCHOLOGY MANIPULATION AT BEST-Observing Listening, Learning- Geez! I stated "concentrate on your music" not commit career suicides. Nevertheless on physical appearance. BDD is a bitch... Lucky surgeons-$$. So Be Happy & Really! Really Smile! Good Luck to all. 2011.
There is a website called the Pavel Andrieivich Chekov's, site from the original Star Trek. I do not know how reliable is the information provided, you can decide for yourself, or if fans already know about this site, however, for those fans who do not mind learning. It is a good reading and amuzing!. It entails Russian customs. It may put some understanding of Russia and put into prospective Russians and t.A.T.u's attitudes and behaviors. Plus it's groovy. :>. It is about Russians basics, names, greetings, common manners, visiting, trips, clothing,dating, eating, meals and drinking just to name a few. "Russian Customs or why lying can be a good thing". Do not be fooled by the Star Trek theme. Check it out. http://www.chekovsite.com/customs.html
Oh, thanks! I loved reading that I do a lot of that with family and friends (the dining part) but so many things- I had no idea about! This should help for when I go back to Russia next year _________________
Seriously, Putin is no more corrupt than most any other political leaders. He is much more seriously helping his country than most national leaders. During Yeltsin times, the infrastructure of Russia quite literally fell apart Around 5,000,000 people died as a result of this breakdown due to the collapse of the country and the resulting (and western encouraged and sponsored) corruption. Since Putin, that sorry state of affairs has been reversed, and life for most Russians is getting better again.
Putin does not have dictatorial power any more than European or American political leaders, he must work within the existing existing power structure. That means the oligarchs that rose under Yeltsin (with western backing). Were he to try and knock these oligarchs from power, assuming he could and even wanted to, it would set Russia right back to Yeltsin times, or even worse. Full scale civil war, like the chaos that ensued after the 1917 Revolution. So even if Putin wasn't corrupt, there is not much he could do besides try and sway the others to a path that at least benefits the country as well as themselves. Which seems to be what is going on.
Myself, being a watermelon, I disagree with many of the policies the Russian government is following. But I also lack knowledge of what is going on behind the scenes in Russia and I lack detailed facts of the future plans the western corporate oligarchs that the Russian government obviously know. So far, besides putting Russia back on the road to recovery, Putin has done a good job countering the war criminals running amok in the west with what little muscle Russia has. In fact, he's been using "judo" on them quite effectively.
Compared to Bush/U.S. Congress, Blair/Brown/Nulabor/Tories, Olmert/Leiberman/Peres, Merkel & co. and Sarkozy & co., Putin comes out head and shoulders above that disgusting muck. It is Putin (with equal help from China) who has up to now prevented that gang of war criminals attacking Iran and setting off the WW3 and the "clash of civilizations" those thoroughly corrupt neanderthals want so bad.
The following 3 short videos of an interview with Aijaz Ahmad give a very good general picture of what those monsters are up to with their desire to spread their Afghanistan and Iraq war crimes into Iran:
As for Litvinenko's demise, the U.K. spy organisation, MI6, have admitted Litvinenko was a spy and working for them. What he was doing with PO-210 has not been explained. My guess he was smuggling it and screwed up, contaminating himself. What he was going to do with the PO-210, whether he was handling this material for MI6 or Berezovsky or Nevzlin or Mossad or the CIA or various Chechen terrorists or any combination of them and/or with others has not been divulged yet. Gorbachev, Yeltsin, the anti-Putin Gaidar (who was poisoned soon after Litvinenko died) and Gaidar's strongly anti-Putin daughter have all said that the whole ruckus in the west about Putin having Litvinenko murdered is a propaganda effort to try and destablise Russia and destroy Russian credibility with people in the west. Why? See that interview above. For detailed analysis on the Litvinenko case as it unfolded see these links below which are about the best I've seen covering the events surrounding Litvinenko's demise.
It's your choice. A corrupt peace or a much more corrupt never ending series of wars. Not ideal, but I know where I stand.
One of the main reasons that Тату caught my interest was their consistant, outspoken antiwar stance (though the video of their extraordinary 2006 St. Petersburg concert is what hooked me on their music). My impression is most people in Russia are strongly antiwar and it's a refreshing change to see that their government reflects that sentiment after the last 6 totally crazy years in what has now become an openly fascistic America. If European people continue with the path their governments/corporate oligarchies are steering them to, they will end up as powerless as thoughful Americans are now and the pawns of governments equally despicably criminal and corrupt. _________________ A little girl questioned a monkey in a zoo:
Why do you live here? Isn't it nicer where you came from? - Montenegro (film)
Зарегистрирован: 19.07.2007 Сообщения: 710 Откуда: America
Добавлено: Пт Ноя 30, 2007 1:49 am Заголовок сообщения:
I just watched a documentary about the ascension of Putin made by a french TV.
If only russian people could see it
But i am not sure it could change anything...
It's very sad, isn't it? Sometimes, to me, it seems like the Russian people don't really want a good leader as much as they just want someone to lead them, you understand? I speak to my cousins in Novosibirsk about Russian politics and such, and they don't seem to care about all the harm that Putin is causing. Or, not that they don't care, they just don't think they can do anything about it. I really would like to get into government and being a Russian language interpreter so I could help out over there _________________