Добавлено: Вс Мар 11, 2012 3:06 pm Заголовок сообщения:
the fact that other states don't accept gay marriage, proofs what?!
That we all sit in the same boat. From nearly 200 countries in the world only a few give homosexuals full rights. All the others are in a struggle to get there. Most western countries have left dictatorship more than 60 years ago and they still are only in the middle of the way. Russia had two decades since then and isn't so much behind (legally that is, the acceptance in the population is another matter).
and I don't speak only about gay marriage, what about other LGBT-rights? In fact there is no protection for example in your job..their is no anti-discrimination law!
To answer this I think I have to go a bit into details. Communism appeared quite homophobic in it's laws (I don't know for sure if this was in the execution of the laws as well). After the breakdown of the communism the orthodox church got much influence, which is homophobic as well. They pretty much "inherited" the ethic authority from them and that's the reason why Russians despite their willingness for freedom and tolerance have still their problems with homosexuality.
The federal laws indeed are more progressive than the population itself. Homosexuality is per law no longer a disease as in former days, homosexuals can adopt children (if they don't live in partnership) and they can openly confess and nevertheless serve in the army. In the USA this is not possible, for example. On the other hand there is no law to protect homosexuals against discrimination and mobbing.
The speed of changes towards more rights was faster in the Eltsin era and slowed down during Putin's, but as far as I know no federal law has been approved which worsens the situation for homosexuals during his leadership. Putin has his own dilemma with gay rights. He lives much from his macho image and that makes him very popular in Russia. Any closeness or even concern for gay people's problems is something he avoids by all means. So it's only natural that he isn't enthusiastic making new laws for more tolerance and protection for homosexuals.
A real opposition is an opposition which is not suppressed! From the Human rights watch report: The authorities refused to register new political parties and used government resources to support pro-Putin candidates in the elections. So, in a democratic system this can NOT be tolerated!!
Sorry, your definition of opposition is wrong. It can be anywhere at anytime under any circumstances. The opposition in Libya had much less rights than in Russia and thanks to their willingness to risk their lives they won - a real opposition.
Talking about the political system in Russia: I like to call it an "in vitro democracy" that is, a democracy under laboratory conditions. Of course it's not a democracy of western standards and it will take a long time to become one. Eltsin tried to make it this way. We know the results. He sold out the country to a handful of oligarchs and in 1999 the country was starving, the whole economy broke down and the system could not feed the people.
If you would try a real democracy in Russia right now the country would fall apart into several (probably more than two dozen) countries, most of which with a dictatorship like Belorus or a rotten democracy like Ukraine, where a country with much potential is drowned by ruthless corruption, which was already doing it's bad job at the beginning of the orange revolution. Leading a super power into democracy is still an adventure for which nobody has a satisfying solution. Putinocracy is maybe the lesser evil.
It does not influence much? Are you serious? It is impossible to for teachers to talk about homosexuality with their students..they are not allowed to say it is normal, so the minors won't learn tolerance ..and when you don't have the right knowledge about homosexuality you learn it by predjudices!! And imagine you are a gay student and you have questions about your sexuality....
The people of Ryazan and Arhangelsk have a similar law for a while now. The law there sees a clear difference between information, which is still allowed (in schools as well), and advertising, which means more or less dispersing flyers for gay parties and the like near schools and other activities which aim at getting children interested. The aim is more against pedophilia than homosexuality as a whole, but of course the devil lies in the detail, the interpretation of the legal text.
In Peterburg's law proposal there was much room for different interpretations, so the decision was postponed for clearing details. I didn't follow the discussion to the end, so I'm not informed about the exact wording of the law, which is essential for estimating further consequences. But more important - the status of the homosexuals in federal law are guaranteed (that is: homosexuality is no crime, no disease, no whatsoever) and no local law must contradict federal law. So in the end the impact of the law, even if more regions join, should be rather low, although not totally insignificant.
Добавлено: Вс Мар 11, 2012 6:36 pm Заголовок сообщения:
in a lot of your arguments I see that you just tries to show genetically where the political situation in russia comes from..but this is not what I wanted to say..the only thing I wanted to share is that Russia is still far away from democratic values and that their is a quite homophobic law.. it only shows unknowledge..they think children could be "truned" to homosexuals..
UPDATE February 8th: This morning, St. Petersburg legislators passed the 2nd reading of the outrageous "propaganda" bill that will silence millions of Russian LGBT voices. Our friend Polina reports that we still have time to call our world leaders -- the final vote will come next week. Call your foreign affairs office now, and spread the word HERE.
The Russian law to silence LGBT people is back -- and we need to act now.
Lawmakers are about to vote on bill that will make it illegal for any person to write a book, publish an article or speak in public about being gay, lesbian, bi or transgender. And this is just the beginning - if the law passes in St. Petersburg, officials have threatened to take it nationwide.
Activists in St. Petersburg are rushing to organize a public protest against the bill, but no matter where you are, you can stand with them. Join this call to leaders around the world to reach out to their counterparts in the Russian government - and ask them to reject this discriminatory and anti-democratic law.
The law is indeed regressive and a step backward. Such laws should be protested against.
At the same time, I don't live in Russia to truly understand social and legal perceptions of homosexuality in the country. Moreover, this law is currently limited to St.Petersburg, we don't know what its impact in Russia will be.
A lot of regressive laws tend to be 'namesake' laws. Politicians pass laws to curry favor and gain momentum. No one cares to implement it stringently. The law is also very ambiguous. It is aimed to prevent so called 'gay propaganda' towards children. While many fear it will be interpreted too broadly, you have to realize if a law is not explicit you can interpret it as narrowly as possible. So what if we want to discuss Taty's past image as 'marketing or branding' genius. Or their past image as Russian music history. Where there is a will, there is a loophole and I'm sure Russians will find plenty too. _________________ I believe, because I can.
Update: Anti-gay law draft passed to State Duma, might become federal
The Federal government may soon pass the controversial anti-gay law, which was passed and adopted in Saint Petersburg, at a coming session. On Thursday the law draft was brought before the State Duma, Interfax news agency reported.
The Novosibirsk Assembly initiated consideration of the law by parliament. "The propaganda of homosexuality has become very wide-spread in Russia recently," the deputies said in an explanatory note.
According to the law draft, those guilty of "homosexual propaganda" will be fined from 4 to 5 thousand rubles. For officials, the fine would be up to 50 thousand rubles, and up to 500 000 rubles for legal entities.
After the law passed in the last reading, Milonov announced that he would use the new law to ban the German music ban Rammstein from performing in Russia.
Update: Anti-gay law draft passed to State Duma, might become federal
Well, this is already the fifth attempt of the same 'gay propaganda' law, after 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2009, and as long as the Duma decides according to the constitution, it's the next unsuccessful one. Representative for all the answers of the government to this law initiative the one of 2004:
"As far as homosexuality itself is not connected with penal acts, its propaganda cannot be seen as publicly dangerous offence ... The suggested proposal contradicts the position of Article 29 of the Constitution of the Russian Federation (in matters of restriction of expression of one's opinions and beliefs) and also Article 8, 10, and 14 of the Convention of the Council of Europe, about the protection of people's rights and basic freedom forseeing the right for private and family life, freedom of expression of opinion and prohibition of discrimination..."
Both Putin and Medvedev never supported the proposal and the constitution makes this initiative practically impossible to become law. The strange thing is that the LGBT community in Russia did not take legal actions against the law (that is: complaint of unconstitutionality )when it was passed in Ryazan 2006, they didn't either when it passed Arhangelsk 2011. Only now, when Peterburg passed it and the homophobs are trying the Duma again, only now they filed a lawsuit. It seems that the LGBT community is so sure about their victory that they didn't fight early but waited until it became a national, even international issue, to maximize the advertising effect.
By the way, the 'gay propaganda' issue isn't a Russian invention. The Brits among us likely know the Clause 28, not so long ago this blemish.
Reading my reply I realise that I have no life, yaaawn!
Добавлено: Вс Апр 08, 2012 10:27 am Заголовок сообщения:
the activists carried signs with them which said "Homosexuality is normal" that was the reason to arrest them!
The arrest had no legal foundation, even the new 'law' didn't give them the right to do this. A simple police actionism (incited by politics!!!) aimed to daunt activists, but with no further consequences.
Freedom of speech? Democracy? In Russia?- No!
Come on! We are talking about a country, where journalists are shot down, if they cross the paths of leading politicians, where political leaders of friendly neighbour countries are poisoned with dioxine, and displeasing spies get a nice dose of radioactive substances. This isn't Paradise II, you know!
The whole issue has a really exhilarating note in itself (if it were not for some people, who have to suffer the consequences). In Peterburg, every year on the 'Day Of The City', there are pictures of Peter I shown everywhere in the city, against a rainbow background (the rainbow being the international symbol of homosexuality) and the people are singing the panslavic patriotic hymn "Gej, slavyane" (Hey, Slav!) which of course sounds like "Gay slav". You may imagine how embarrassing this is for many people.
For completeness I've searched for the text of the law. Here it is:
Article 7.1 is about homosexual propaganda, 7.2 is for pedophilia.
Public actions, aimed at propaganda of homosexuality (rem: actually it says - sodomy, lesbianism), bisexuality and trangenderism among minors, result in imposing an administrative penalty for the citizen of 5.000 rubles, for an official of 50.000 rubles and for a juridical person of 50.000 to 500.000 rubles.
Remark: Public actions aimed at propaganda of homosexuality, bisexuality and trangenderism among minors shall be understood as an action for a purposeful and uncontrolled distribution on publicly accessible ways of information, able to cause damage to health, moral and spiritual maturation of minors, including to form among them distorted views about social equivalence of traditional and non-traditional marriage.
Of course this law is poor nonsense. Not only is it against the federal constitution and against international contracts signed by the Russian government, it is even almost impossible to execute. While with this diffuse definition you can arrest almost everybody saying anything positive about homosexuality, the poor prosecutor has to prove that it is aimed at minors, that it is propaganda and not just opinion or elucidation, and he has to prove that it damages health and development of the youth. Good luck then!
By the way, the law has passed with 26 'yes' votes and 5 'no', all of them by the Yablok party. The parties 'Just Russia', the Communists and the Liberal Democrats refused to vote, not because they condemned the proposal, but because it was too lenient towards the gays. Elena Babich from the LDPR even suggested lifelong prison for gay propaganda. You see, gay rights have almost no support among the political clique of the country.